In our latest Ask the session I had the pleasure of hosting Amir Ansari and Kelly Schulz in our Slack channel.

Amir and Kelly are partners in appsforall – a project that seeks to help people create more . Their target audience is product owners, app developers and designers. Their mission is to provide the tools, resources and guidelines necessary to start the process of re/ apps with accessibility and inclusion in mind.

Today they shared their vision, their journey and their excellent advice with us.

If you didn’t make the session today because you didn’t know about it, make sure you join our community to get updates of upcoming sessions.

If you’re interested in seeing what we discussed, or you want to revisit your own questions, here is a full transcript of the chat.

Here is a pic of Kelly, Amir and the awesome guide dog Gallia in action.

 

Transcript

hawk

2018-05-02 23:02

First up, I’d like to say a huge thanks to @amir.ansari and @kelly.schulz for their time today. I’m looking forward to learning from you.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:02

So… the formal intros:

hawk

2018-05-02 23:02

Amir Ansari heads up the User Experience Practice at Transpire – a consultancy that aims to create impactful, design lead digital products that empower businesses and make a difference.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:02

He has a team of wonderful, talented and friendly UXers helping to make people’s lives easier.

Amir has done his 10,000 + hours (over 18 years) of practice designing and leading designers, and is passionate about creating inclusive and accessible experiences that leave people feeling engaged and empowered. He likes to do all that with a smile on his face.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:03

Kelly Schulz joined Telstra (Australia’s largest telecommunications company) in 2007 and has worked to improve customer experience for all customers.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:03

With five years leading Telstra’s Complaint Analysis & Insights Team, she has a deep knowledge of how product, process and system design plays a significant role in the lives of consumers.

Born with a rare, genetic, eye condition, Kelly has been legally blind since birth. Now responsible for Telstra’s Accessibility & Inclusion strategy, Kelly’s approach focuses on building awareness, and an accessibility conscience, to foster inclusion of customers, employees and their communities living with disability.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:04

A project that seeks to help people create more accessible apps. Their target audience is product owners, app developers and designers. Their mission is to provide the tools, resources and guidelines necessary to start the process of re/building apps with accessibility and inclusion in mind.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:04

And then give us the chance to ask questions about their journey, lessons learned, challenges faced, etc

hawk

2018-05-02 23:05

@amir.ansari / @kelly.schulz – over to you to give us a rundown on appsforall and what the project is all about

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:05

Hi everyone, glad to be here.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:06

I’ll be writing on behalf of myself and Kelly, but feel free to ask either of us direct questions

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:06

Transpire and Telstra have worked together in the past

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:07

As part of last year’s GAAD (Global Accessibility Awareness Day – May 17 2017) Kelly and I ran a workshop to address and explore the challenges of consumers and uxers when building native applications.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:07

We knew that standards and guidlines for the webs existed (WCAG 2.0) however there weren’t solid guidelines or standard for native applications.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:08

This was also made clear because of the number of apps currently on the various app stores that fail to meet basic accessbility (a11y) needs.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:09

We also feel that a11y goes beyond just make apps accessible, but rather it’s a way to ensure and promise simply good design for ALL.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:09

p.s. apologies in advance for any spelling mistakes (typing fast)

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:10

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:10

the aim was to do a soft launch just to showcase that we have this initiative and goal.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:11

the website has been buiilt quickly using off the shelf diy website builder hence unfortuantely (and ironically) there are some a11y issues and we know about them.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:11

Questions are go…

paul.crichton

2018-05-02 23:11

Hi Amir and Kelly. Do you think WCAG 2.1 will help with native apps?

isha

2018-05-02 23:12

Curious to hear about tools you suggest for ensuring web apps that are accessible.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:12

(Note that I will acknowledge that your question has been queued with a grey ? like ^)

allyraven

2018-05-02 23:12

Some devs will say WCAG doesn’t apply to apps, it’s a web standard. How do you respond?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:12

Question: Hi Amir and Kelly. Do you think WCAG 2.1 will help with native apps? …

eric

2018-05-02 23:12

Hi guys. Thanks for doing this. Any suggestions on best approach for accessible design for designers prototyping native apps?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:13

Answer: yes to a certain extent. It addresses the improvement in ally and a broader remit to help everyone. It foes include some updated guidelines around touch devices and small form factor.

jmdorion

2018-05-02 23:13

Hi @amir.ansari Hi @hawk and everyone joining! So glad we’re having this conversation!

Question about native apps and how should we as designers and developers rely on the accessibility provided by the OS you build your app for?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:14

What our research has shown is that the wcag guidelines can be overwhelming to the novice and people responsible for digital products often may not know where to go or how to use the guidelines.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:15

and also now that there are hybrid native/web platforms (e.g. ReactNative, Xamerin, etc.) there’s a blur between what is web and what has been built natively.

jdebari

2018-05-02 23:15

Question: Are there any good tools to test native app prototypes for accessibility?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:16

Question: Some devs will say WCAG doesn’t apply to apps, it’s a web standard. How do you respond?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:17

Answer: yes that is correct. Again as version 2.1 has included some touch guidelines, it’s a good start, however it doesn’t cover many of the other requirements for devs to build native applications. We at @transpire refer to the iOS Humane Interface Guidelines and Andorid’s Material Design for designing, however for our devs and QAs, the guideliens don’t really help

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:18

Guildelines and standards aside, ultimately the best practice for ensuring inclusive and accessible apps is to put designs (early) in front of all users with all abilities. We have found this to be the best way to ensure we build apps to meet end users’ needs.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:20

Question: @eric Hi guys. Thanks for doing this. Any suggestions on best approach for accessible design for designers prototyping native apps?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:21

Answer: start by visiting http://appsforall.com.au. ; ) The idea has been that we collected the top three tips for the various roles as a place for them to start. as the quote ont he homepage suggests, @kelly.schulz and I believe that do until you know better, then do better. It’s not about solving and designing a 100% accessible app, but just to start somewhere

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:22

Question: @jmdorion Question about native apps and how should we as designers and developers rely on the accessibility provided by the OS you build your app for?

andrew.arch

2018-05-02 23:23

has joined #ask-the-uxperts

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:23

Answer: the best way is to turn on those various features (e.g. TalkBack, VoiceOver, Scanner, greyscale, zoom etc.) and put designs and prototypes on the device to test as opposed to use emulators on your computer screen. Often there are huge differences and desgning and testing in context is much better.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:23

Also, iOS and Android provide very good dev and designer guidelines on how each a11y feature works and how to design and dev for them

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:24

Question: @jdebari Are there any good tools to test native app prototypes for accessibility?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:25

Answer: Anroid, out of the box has an a11y checker/scanner you can turn on (under settings). I’m not 100% sure if iOS does but I don’t think so. We have found that manual testing (with our QA team and users) is the best approach. Yes, time consuming and more expensive, but has more rigour.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:26

@amir.ansari How can we lead the way with understanding our responsibilities and implementing good processes when it comes to app a11y?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:26

Good question @hawk

hawk

2018-05-02 23:26

We’re at the end of the q queue (see what I did there?) so now is a good time to throw yours into the ring

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:27

Answer: @kelly.schulz and I believe we need to start with empathy. People (devs, designers, PMs, etc.) need to understand the realities of different abilities and needs. This often creates the aha moment. Then we have found they are more open to then explore the next phase of their journey…

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:27

which is the “how do I do this”.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:27

jdebari

2018-05-02 23:28

Question: do you have any recommendations or resources to find people with various “disabilities” to have as participants when usability testing?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:29

A11y is not a hard line where you either need a11y or not. Everybody can benefit from “good design” and a11y is about good design.

richard

2018-05-02 23:29

Hi, and thanks for doing this. I was legally blind for many years before a newly approved procedure restored my sight, so I’ve been on both sides of this.

There are a lot of good guidelines for accessibility out there, but frankly they focus on the core usability. Have you seen “emotional design” and delight done well for visually or otherwise impaired users? A blind user may have a different arc with the product and have different moments for designers to acknowledge their experience. Any gold standards? Examples to follow?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:29

Question: @jdebari Question: do you have any recommendations or resources to find people with various “disabilities” to have as participants when usability testing?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:30

Answer: this is a very good question and something we’ve been challenged with. Our first approach was to hit our network and use people we knew (e.g. @kelly). However this was not scalable.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:31

I’m also on the board of Retina Australia (Vic) – a not for profit charity with members who live with Inherited Retinal Disease . I’m in the process of getting these members to join a market research panel.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:32

Also, Intopia Connect is a company in Australia who is trying to solve for this – connecting with and signing up users with various abilities to and accessiblity needs to be open to conduct market research.

charles

2018-05-02 23:32

While WCAG was not written for native apps, all of the understanding criteria apply, and all of the criteria apply to web apps and native apps that are powered by or wrap web content.

Accessibility is still a requirement.

maadonna

2018-05-02 23:32

@richard that is a fascinating topic. I’d love to hear more if you do find resources.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:33

Lastly, ideally people in their local cities would approach representative and advocacy groups and discuss the idea of getting access to their members. However, it’s important to note that these individuals are helping us and shouldn’t be expected to help without some form of appreciation/incentivisation/gift.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:34

Question: @richard Hi, and thanks for doing this. I was legally blind for many years before a newly approved procedure restored my sight, so I’ve been on both sides of this.

There are a lot of good guidelines for accessibility out there, but frankly they focus on the core usability. Have you seen “emotional design” and delight done well for visually or otherwise impaired users? A blind user may have a different arc with the product and have different moments for designers to acknowledge their experience. Any gold standards? Examples to follow?

charles

2018-05-02 23:35

Silver will address digital accessibility more broadly.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:35

Answer: this is a very good question and a really touch one. I love t hat you’ve asked this.

rupert

2018-05-02 23:35

has joined #ask-the-uxperts

profungi

2018-05-02 23:35

has joined #ask-the-uxperts

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:36

Frankly, when you look at Apple and iOS, they design and build for emotional connection and they don’t get it right 100%, so they’re not even the gold standard. No one’s getting the gold medal ATM (that we’ve come across) and hence why @kelly.schulz and I felt starting the conversation with http://appsforall.com.au.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:37

With this in mind, I’d love to have people (from all over the world) to connect with @kelly.schulz and I and contribute to the site or ideas and examples they’ve come across. This is not an Australian initiative, we just live in Melbourne and also couldn’t get the .com domain, but it’s open for all.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:37

@amir.ansari Do you find that clients are open to the *perceived* extra work/cost that goes into accessible design. Do you get pushback?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:38

@amir.ansari Do you find that clients are open to the *perceived* extra work/cost that goes into accessible design. Do you get pushback?

hawk

2018-05-02 23:38

Questions please!

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:38

Answer: good question. YES.

allyraven

2018-05-02 23:39

Have you got some examples of mainstream apps that are doing accessibility really well?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:39

Many of our clients (Telstra not included) don’t know what a11y and inclusive design means. They often see it as an extra line item in our invoices.

evaismailov

2018-05-02 23:40

has joined #ask-the-uxperts

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:40

To combat that, we’ve changed our design and dev process where we have build success criteria in our stories that have a11y built in. This way, our response to our clients are that “sorry, it’s just how we work, it’s built into our process – it’s no extra cost to you”. And we factor that cost into our estimation.

charles

2018-05-02 23:40

@amir.ansari question: can you recommend anyone to lead the prototyping projects for the W3C Silver Task Force?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:42

Question: @amir.ansari question: can you recommend anyone to lead the prototyping projects for the W3C Silver Task Force?

maadonna

2018-05-02 23:43

@amir.ansari What ‘kinds’ of accessibility do you build into your quotes? Primarily visual? Other stuff?

dorothee

2018-05-02 23:43

@amir.ansari did you experience pushback from your own business’ side when you wanted to factor the cost for a11y in your estimation?

wearepow

2018-05-02 23:43

@amir.ansari would that cost slightly erode the design process. When the apps inclusiveness becomes a bigger job than expected in the first case?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:43

Answer: to be honest we hadn’t come across the prototyping project of the W3C Silver Task Force as we’ve been mainly focusing on the native space. But I’ll add that to @kelly and my reading list to get up to speed.

charles

2018-05-02 23:44

I can connect you both.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:44

great

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:46

Question: @maadonna What ‘kinds’ of accessibility do you build into your quotes? Primarily visual? Other stuff?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:47

Answer: we start with a big long list covering all – visual, mobility and dexterity, audio, sensory etc. Then we cut back based on what we think we can achieve. I must admit, cognitive is a hard one to plan and design for – we do try and limit and or simplify text and navigation and design.

andrew.arch

2018-05-02 23:47

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:47

Question: @dorothee did you experience pushback from your own business’ side when you wanted to factor the cost for a11y in your estimation?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:47

Answer: I’m typing this on behalf of @kelly representing enterprise companies…

lucky13820

2018-05-02 23:48

Hi @amir.ansari I joined late. So if someone already asked this question, just ignore me. Do you have examples that have done accessibility well? Preferably on both android and iOS. Thanks.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:49

The process isn’t to just add a line in an invoice – she has started with education top down with senior execs – to build empathy that responsible business is accessible and inclusive, and to build in the expectation that there will be a cost but also that the market and their customers will benefit.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:49

From Transpire’s perspective, it’s one of our fundamental values so push back for us internally is a no. That’s not to say other agencies and consultancies who compete on price won’t have internal pushback.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:50

Question: @wearepow would that cost slightly erode the design process. When the apps inclusiveness becomes a bigger job than expected in the first case?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:50

Answer: it depends if it’s a new prouct being built or retrofitting / fixing an existing product.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:52

Either way, there are cost and time pressures and unexpected things that come up (be it staffing, tech etc.). We just remain flexible, have our non-negotiables, and our nice to haves. We keep our clients very close and on a weekly basis, review where we’re at and see if something needs to be dropped or put in. I hope that answers the question.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:52

We have ~5 more mins left. If you have a question that you’re sitting on, ask now. If not, we’ll get Amir/Kelly to spend the last few mins summarising the things that they think are most impt. and what they’d like us to take away from this.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:52

wow – the time flew.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:53

@amir.ansari It looks like that’s it from the floor. If there is one thing that you’d like us all to take away to our workplaces/colleagues/peers to help get your message out, what would it be?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:54

@kelly.schulz and I want two things for people to take away.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:54

1. Just start, start somewhere, do what you can until you know better.

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:55

2. Become intimate with your devices’ accessibility features as well as the basics to make designs of your apps inclusive and accessible (again http://appsforall.com.au is a good starting point).

charles

2018-05-02 23:55

thank you @amir.ansari

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:55

And lastly, please collaborate with us – I’m sure there are better experts in this space than @kelly and I. We’d love for you to contribute to the site or educate @kelly and I.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:55

How can we contact you?

amir.ansari

2018-05-02 23:56

– @kelly and I will receive the email.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:56

Awesome.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:56

Thanks so much for your time today.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:56

It’s been an honour to have you here as our guests.

hawk

2018-05-02 23:56

And kudos to the work you are doing. :slightly_smiling_face:

hawk

2018-05-02 23:57

And thanks for joining us today. Great questions.

More articles on this topic:



Source link http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/uxmastery/~3/DPq_HGKLyMs/

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here